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Forum:Continuation of User:Meta/Rules page
old discussion this is the continuation of the rules discussion, which seems to have been moderately successful. I think i fixed the main issues that I can fix wby toggling things, and now the only changes left are the ones that regard cultural/systemic changes for the wiki. mainly the one about my listeing to people in circumstances that do not involve rizon. but yeah. talk about things. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 06:39, November 3, 2011 (UTC) ---- Alright. To start off, what the hell is the "random cuteness button"? I mean, it doesn't make that much sense, seeing as we're a refeceinc wiki. I mean, it's like the president saying, "And I'm sad to say that 15 million people died in the nuclear blast. While I explain it, I'll hold this picture of a cute bunny." See, it's not logical in the least. Sure, you can post things that are cute on the user pages and all, but really? As a tab? Secondly, as others have brought up, what's with Dr. Alliance, I mean Dr. Miafuji thing? It only links to his page, no special issues or articles, just his page. (Zoids Fanatic 12:29, November 3, 2011 (UTC)) ---- ....I'm not sure where you draw the connection between an animated series about girls with airplane legs and a nuclear strike. However, for the record, I have had nothing to do with the inclusion of the emergency cuteness button, even if i was and am in favor of retaining it. A better account of the circumstances surrounding it might be had from a more.... familiar source. Assuming you mean the Papafuji picture on the front page, and assuming you never browsed wikipedia at any point in the previous two years, it's a take-off on the funding banners they had over the articles during their last capital campaign. For whatever reason, we can't remove it without basically wrecking the front page's formatting. While you're wondering about the idiosyncracies of the wiki, you might also notice Ingaki Mami looking at you with a condescending gaze to the left of the main body of the article. that was originally derived from an image macro that was used on 4chan when someone asked a question that was easily answered by the wiki. there are a few more things like this sprinkled around the wiki, and in no way do they detract from its essential utility. Surprisingly enough, this used to be a fairly light-hearted project, something to which accuracy is in no way a mutually exclusive property. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 17:06, November 3, 2011 (UTC) Hell, give me enough time, I can relate anything to everything. Now, I've noticed something, which I'll start on. It is stated that this is not a community, but a resource. However, by what you are telling me, there are "projects" sprinkled around the wiki. Well, shouldn't we remove those then, seeing as this isn't a community? It would make no sense at all if someone isn't allowed to make fanfiction or post fan art on here, but be fine for someone to put a "joke" article or something on here. Doesn't sound fair at all to me. And even though it can screw up formatting, atleast it doesn't crash the site. (Zoids Fanatic 17:24, November 3, 2011 (UTC)) ---- The obvious difference here is unlike fanfiction, there is no potentially misleading information included with the mami picture or the ECB. The Papafuji banner perhaps has more room for misunderstanding, but at the time it was posted, everyone understood it, even people that had no frame of reference whatsoever for this series. In any case, that's irrelevant, since we aren't exactly keeping it on because we still think it's really funny. In any case referring to these things as "Projects" is pretty much a gross overstatement. they're just simple desing desicions that were made as they came up, when someone chose to add a little extra something instead of sticking to the bare minimum. trying to compare that to randomly posting a 200,000k character fanfiction is like comparing apples and onions. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 18:06, November 3, 2011 (UTC) So, a blog, that is clearly a blog, and has no relation to canon even when I state it is not canon is considered "misleading", but having little jokes aren't? That makes no sense! The jokes aren't canon, and do cause issues. I mean, how is someone, who has no idea what the series is about, sees one of the jokes, an think's it's canon? And no, you can't give the crap excuse of "we assume you've seen Strike Witches". That's just not fair for anyone. (Zoids Fanatic 18:33, November 3, 2011 (UTC)) ---- Because if you actually took the time to look at the content of the blog posts that were made prior to the 6(?) you posted you'd see that they differed quite clearly from your own in both content and purpose. the blog was being used as a place to dump and translate tweets from humikane (since organizing different things to be translated was one of the original purposes of the wiki, along with a place to store references to events and equipment made during the episodes) and it is because it interfered with that essential purpose of the wiki that it was axed. And yes, we do assume you have seen strike withces. the wiki was not created to provide a basic primer for the series, it was created to give people a place where they could easily access translated profiles of World Witches, transcripts of audio media, and as a place where we could compile lists of references (as seen on the episode pages). it was created because prior to the wiki, all we had to work off was a series of infographics that were in people's personal image folders and scattered across the boorus. These things don't make much sense to, nor are they of any real interest to, people that haven't already seen the series. We don't hide spoilers becuase the point of the wiki is to show the reader something it may have missed the first time it watched the series, that could add to enjoyment in subsequent viewings. Is that fair? no. but fairness as a concept is purely subjective, and since we cannot be all things to all people we at least try to fulfill our essential tasks as well as we can. the fanfaction was deleted and is not tolerated anywhere in the public body of the wiki because it interferes with the presentation of audio media, short stories or other information already included on the wiki because it might be difficult to distinguish. As a user, you are actually a good argument for these restrictions, since you seem to be less than intuitively aware of what constitutes fan fiction and what doesn't. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 19:21, November 3, 2011 (UTC) I'm a shining example for all to poke at, aren't I. Here's my problem. From the sound of it, you're wanting to make a fan-site, not a wiki, as you have the mentality of "for te fans, by the fans". A wiki is a site that informs the public about the topic, regardless if they know a lot, a little, or nothing at all about that topic. This also means giving serious overviews about the series, the characters, etc. And having on the front page "we assume you're a fan of SW, and as such we'll treat like one" is generally the most repulsive thing you can place on the front page. Not only will it make people think we don't like outsiders, but will show us off in a jerk light. Something everyone wishes to avoid. Now, about the fan fic, I could hardly give a fuck on what you decide about it. Really, I don't care if it's not allowed or not. I should note, I'm not going to say "oh, I'll still post it here" or "I'll male a new wiki". My whole point is that you seem to let fanon things slip by under the pretense of "oh, it won't bother anyone", but if something else comes by, you automatically "axe" it... After you say "oh, well it broke the rules which are only on my talk page". Seriously, it get's annoying, either be for fanon on the wiki, or againt it. You can't be both. {C}(Zoids Fanatic 20:28, November 3, 2011 (UTC)) ...fanon? I'm not sure exactly what it is you are referring to as fanon. The nature of the series means that the official canon is pretty messy, but the information on the wiki is generally the best information we have on the various subjects. If you could be more specific about what sorts of things you consider to be "fanon" I could be a lot more helpful. obviously, if something is shoddy, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't fix it. things like the TE Lawrence article and the WSC article were able to remain as the were for as long as they were because they were not especially important, and because they are, unlike the witches, pretty much direct appearances of well known figures. I admit the wiki needs a lot of work, but it needs work in areas like getting articles written for media items that are stubs, and for fleshing out minor charcters based on information we already have from their appearances in existing work. However, things like the witches' quotes regarding the other witches are from officially published source material. Things like the "1947: what-if" sections aren't exactly official, but they are translations of tweets from the series creator, and are still worth including in the articles. Things like the ECB aren't fanon because they don't make any statement one way or the other about the witches. I'm not trying to defend all the decisions we have ever made, but it seems the things you specifically mentioned are either rather superficial, or you're just misinformed. I understand that you are trying to help, but it seems you need to get a better feel for the extended universe before you try to make any major changes to things. immediately jumping to hyperbolic rhetoric the moment you see something that seems out of place is not constructive. Reading Kimi to Tsunagaru Sora, the firstspear doujins, and the transcripts to the various drama albums (at least the ones we have translations for) will go a long way towards getting better feel for the series as a whole. You cannot find manga scans on the site, but if you look around a bit I am sure you can get a hold of them somewhere. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 20:47, November 3, 2011 (UTC) Yes, well I have read through the auto drama's, and more or less everything that is extended within the SW univerise. But that's not my problem. My problem is something like this This. As you can tell, that's a fanon joke right there. I understand the "pants" joke quite well, but for those who are new to the fanon, or don't know anything at all, will cause confusion. A good amount of confusion I might add. As for the translations, you should be happy to know that I did rope in some of my online buddies who do know the translations/own the mangas/own the doujians. So, as said, I am quite well informed about the true canon/fanon. The only "fanon" that is getting to me is the "side-jokes" or "side-comments" slipped into an article. We may understand them, but for anyone who is new to the fanon may easily get the wrong issue, especially if we are dealing with the people whom only know of the anime. (Zoids Fanatic 20:55, November 3, 2011 (UTC)) The caption? then fix it. if you had pointed to specific examples such as this in the beginning we would not have had to have this converstation. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 21:24, November 3, 2011 (UTC) Yes, it was things like that which caused me the issues, not the AU's or quotes. The reason why I never did it in the first place was because of this. You see, back in the Zoids Wiki, we had our own fanon joke. A simple, harmless joke. Well, one day they removed the joke and me, being naive, decided to throw it back in. To make a long story short, we had an intense argument, people's reps got slashed, members targeted other members, and someone quit the Wiki for good. So, that's why I was trying to make my point on the "fanon". I'd rather no one get into a fight over simple jokes/"harmless" things. That included people who are in support of the "snipts". So, rather then be sorry, I wanted to make sure it would be fine for the removal of such things. (Zoids Fanatic 21:42, November 3, 2011 (UTC)) There we go, the fanon problem has been eliminated, no need to worry now. right? It does help, when you make a joke, to at least use correct grammer though. On another note, I agree, some changes do need made. The idea of a wiki is to be informative to all, it isn't a blog in which upload the latest news.So it should by "By the fans, for all." I think the spoiler warning could be removed on the front page, along with Dr Miyafuji, and replaced with something a little nicer, like "This wiki is a collective of all known information regarding Strike Witches, so readers are asked to take care, when reading through the articles." Also, did you see my suggestion for changing how the witches are displayed on the front page? Stuart-says-yes 23:05, November 3, 2011 (UTC) While we are on the subject of the first page, could we please remove the current image of Minna, Barkhorn, and Hartmann with a less, er, "racy" one. I mean, I know the users of the wiki will see plenty of panty shots, but do we truely need them on the front page? (Zoids Fanatic 23:36, November 3, 2011 (UTC)) I'm not going into the Papafuji thing right now, because yes, that is on it's way out. just not in the immediate future. as for the picture of Minna et al, if that is too "racy" for a user, why are they interested in SW to begin with? it was selected because it's a pretty good action shot, not because it has puffy vulva. as for the spoiler warning, it is probably overkill as well considering that Strike Witches has fewer plot twists than an A-team Episode. I'll look into re-wording it. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 00:02, November 4, 2011 (UTC) I can see what he means, it is a trite bit, OTT. Especially if someone else sees it, since they are in their pants. Don't get me wrong but I think there are better pieces that could be displayed on the front page. Stuart-says-yes 00:13, November 4, 2011 (UTC) If we're already talking about the front page, why not redesign it in a way that gets rid of not-safe-for-work (by a definition of normal people) and things that make the no-fanart thing looks hypocritical (the fanart). Maybe add the forums to the link section, making it into a wiki portal thing. Just throwing it out there. Speaking about the design, with Wikia making the Random Page and Wiki Activity buttons larger, the logo up there could use a little touchup. Nipa's Weasel (Talk) #woozle 00:27, November 4, 2011 (UTC) Those two I, do believe, can not be changed in size. And the logo does look fine to me, but I am one to be amused by "plain" things. But I like Nipa's idea about the links. It would be much more helpful then scounging around looking for a topic. As for a front page image, I have seen quite a good image of the 501 all standing/sitting on a beach by their new home (it's canon). Sure, there is the whole no pants thing... but it's much better then the panty shot (or the air-born vollyball. That would be a very, ''very ''bad image for the front page) And, speaking of images, what is the rule of non-canon (fanart or photos) images on userpages/talk pages? (Zoids Fanatic 00:41, November 4, 2011 (UTC)) By logo I meant the header , because doesn't look as nice as it could. As for fanart on user pages, I'd go with "if you want one or two to make it look pretty, go ahead" but if you just want to make a complete gallery in your user space, you'd be better of dumping everything onto an imageboard or some *booru. Nipa's Weasel (Talk) #woozle 01:08, November 4, 2011 (UTC) Hmm, I like that sky image. If it could fit, I'd like to see it replace the current logo (the plain background). And thanks. I'll make sure to remember that. (Zoids Fanatic 01:10, November 4, 2011 (UTC)) Uhh, it is actually in use right now, just saying. Nipa's Weasel (Talk) #woozle 01:14, November 4, 2011 (UTC) Oh... well, I do like how it is then. But that's just me. Damn my eyesight. By the way, are we ever going to do something about that image on the front page? I mean, we had quite the debate over it... and now we're silent over it. So, did we get anywhere's with it at all? (Zoids Fanatic 01:24, November 4, 2011 (UTC)) ------ looks like we might be able to get away with the papafuji banner for a little while longer.... just kidding. we're working on it. --Snugglemuffins (SW talk) (SG talk) irc.rizon.net#aliveandwell 00:54, November 8, 2011 (UTC) PS: the protection on the front page works perfectly, and the protection on the 501st witches' pages is the same for every witch, including Perrine. yes, it is meant to block new and unregistered users, you only have to wait about a week before you can use it. it is an effective way to prevent vandalism. The, um, front page is still locked. Also, I was just going to go along and delete that photo from the home page, as it seems we're in agreement to remove it for something else. (Zoids Fanatic 02:00, November 8, 2011 (UTC)) More importantly, perhaps we could reword the spoiler warning again? It sounds a little dickish. "All Spoilers are unmarked, if indeed they do exist in this series." Suggesting that spoilers don't exist, is inane in its self, since visitors may not have finished watching the anime. Something like "Any spoilers pertaining to the series are unmarked, so users are urged to take care when visiting." Would be a little more appropriate perhaps. Also, some page code leaked out, you should probably fix that. Finally, perhaps a daft suggestion but how about relocating the irc channel link to the related links page? That is what is is for, isn't it? Stuart-says-yes 07:47, November 8, 2011 (UTC)